nd you know we we talk about um
important how important boundaries are.
It makes them feel safe, loved and you
Um and I think again it was probably
Megan Dent maybe Vanessa the point maybe
you about um if you imagine walking
across a bridge in the night without
rails you’d be crawling and panicking
that you’re going to fall off the edge
of the bridge. But if there’s really
secure rails, you’d walk over
confidently. That’s boundaries
You know, because again, these words are
all thrown away around. But I’m like, we
are humans having a human experience and
these are the things we have to do as
parents, you know, rather than being
that gentle permissive. I don’t even
like saying gentle because then it’s it
just has that connotations of too soft.
Well, it won’t. Gentle parenting was a
term coined by a parent educator called
Sarah Owell Smith in the UK
and she determined it as a way of
describing authoritative parenting. So
it’s all the we’re all the same thing.
Um but the term went viral on social
media and the problem with social media
is it’s a lot easier to talk about how
to name feelings and how to connect with
kids than it is to talk about the how to
of boundaries cuz the how to of
boundaries is actually very physical.
Yeah. So, um, you know, we’re often
physically helping our kids get off the
Definitely want to talk about that.
I’m physically taking the phone off
because you’re like, “Oh, I can’t touch
them.” And this is it’s a bit like we
were talking about with men, like men
are so beautiful and and so important in
our lives. And I talk about I always say
to my husband, you know, um, soft,
heart, strong man cuz he wants to be the
man of the house, you know, and it’s
like still having cuz they are they’re
just like little boys inside. But, um,
then it’s al also like you can’t touch a
child, you can’t do that. But I want to
talk about that. Let’s delve into it. So
if anyone watches this. Um, and I I was
saying I share this with a lot of my
clients because it’s obviously I talk
all this sort of talk with my clients
one-on- ones and stuff, but I I love
this book because it is quite specific.
And I think if you haven’t got that
muscle to train, you haven’t had that
muscle trained yet. Great start to get
that going. So I think the scripts are
uh can help with the uncomfortableness
because obviously like you said, you’re
not so worried about the scripts, but
I think they get us going. So for me,
for me it was learning a few um words
and things that I could do to help me be
cuz it feels uncomfortable, doesn’t it?
It feels really odd at the beginning cuz
I was thinking with a strong willed
you’ve got to be stronger.
It’s absolutely goes the opposite. And
so everyone’s telling us to consequence
more and she was just going off the
rail. Not off the rails, but like I just
can’t explain it. And because I’ve had
that experience and she’s such a
beautiful, kind kid, um her strong
willed personality, we nearly broke her
I think a lot of strong willed kids are
they’re highly sensitive or deep
feeling. And 30% of the population is
highly sensitive or deep feeling.
And what that means is they just absorb
more of the world and of emotions.
As a result, they’re more likely to have
more cortisol in their system,
especially as kids, as they learn to
feel all of that. And so they’re more
prone to either anxiety or um anger. And
anger is a front emotion. It often sits
in front of worry or disappointment.
So in the thick of it. So So Eloise went
through her anxiety because all of all
Um that’s another thing I’d like to
touch on if we can, but you know lived
it and I didn’t know I had it. You have
it when you’re a child, but um you just
live with it. But then your kids get
start to get diagnosed, you would know
this and you’re like, “Oh, is that not
normal?” So the eldest was sort of
internal and her fightflight response
which is that worry is going within and
so our second with the ADD is um
fighting fight flight. So when we were
getting support for her it was like oh
that makes sense fearful bit bit
frightened within and then the
psychologist went fight flight freeze
for and I’m like fight so our daughter
who had the anx started having anxiety
um it was her anxiety was aggress not
aggressive but yelling and whatever and
and but the poor thing was worried
well it’s a bodyguard and sometimes if
you if you can get really close to a kid
And I remember this once and I said, “I
can see that you’re so angry about
the brother, the whatever.”
Whatever someone’s teased them. Yeah.
And I think that this is really hard or
you’re really worried or you’re really
disappointed and often they crumble like
I missed that part. Well, yeah, it’s
funny, not funny. I missed doing that. I
missed that. I didn’t know about it. I
didn’t know about it. And so then as she
got older, she got defensive. And so,
you know, she has to over times had to
because even though I was loving and
trying to help her, it wasn’t enough.
The loving and trying to help her wasn’t
enough. It was hearing her when they’re
a bit younger, like toddlers and stuff.
If I had used this when she was a
toddler, she would have allowed me in.
But because it was I it was too late and
I was just trying to fix fix, she was
You know, whereas I think I I mean, I
can’t take it back. And but I think
really all that you’re doing when we’re
implementing as toddlers absolutely
gives them that regulation when they get
It helps. I mean I still think you’re
still on another journey. I know I I
know I’m sure there are times where you
think um but I just love hearing your
stories about the boys and stuff like
that cuz boys can be boys and boys are a
bit more rough and tumble, aren’t they?
Like little boys sometimes, you know.
Not all boys like that. Yeah. I suppose
a combination of four. You’d have you’d
probably have one that’s a bit more
robust. You have one that’s a little
One of the gentlest souls you’ve ever
Yeah. So beautiful. I love that. I love
that though, too. But that is boys.
That’s mean, aren’t they? There’s so
much goodness in this amazing book,
Little People, Big Feelings. Um, and
it’s the go-to parenting guide uh for
dealing with kids with big emotions. Um,
and so there’s so many obviously gold in
here, but the one that I really want to
talk about and we’ve deep dived into is
when things escalate like the hitting,
and like you were saying for for me when
the anger comes out, it’s like, oh my
gosh, they’re going to be serial
killers. They’re going to be prostitutes
This is destined for prison as you say.
So they’re not it is age appropriate as
you talk about in here. And I love how
in this book you not only explain in in
nice, easy, understandable terms of
what’s age appropriate, what’s normal,
cuz often we fear that. We’re like, why
is that kid so compliant and lovely and
we want to normalize the the the
escalation. So like you were saying
before really um you separate the
behavior from the child. Yeah. Meaning
the child’s good. The behavior might be
annoying, frustrating, but it’s not the
child. often I think at times if we
don’t understand all of this we think
that’s a child. Well I know I did. I
just was like that behavior is her but
really it wasn’t. It was underlying
anxiety that came out. That’s right.
So what you’re saying in here is you
know no child wants to hit or hurt. You
know no child wants to get disappoint um
really if we really really hear that in
our minds when they’re being a bit
difficult. Um and and so then it’s our
role with with the tools that you’ve got
to be able to support them. So what
you’re saying the aggression is like
that bodyguard. So it’s the underlying
response to something else that’s going
Yeah. I mean a way to put it um that
that good kid thing is um it’s the most
generous assumption that we can make. So
um you know imagine that you’re driving
in traffic and someone cuts you off um
and you can either completely lose it
some blah blah blah blah blah
um honk your horn. I mean, we’ve seen we
see road rage where people get out and
lose their mind. Totally.
So, that’s that’s that’s one way or
someone cuts you off in traffic and you
maybe they’re on the way to hospital,
right? So, we make an assumption.
Now, I choose to go around the world,
not just with my kids, but I choose to
assume we are all doing the best that we
Totally. Um, and if you if you can
really refra frame that for kids, we do
live in a society that has almost tried
to convince us that babies are trying to
manipulate us from birth, that children
need to be almost the evil needs to be
sort of taught out of them. And that’s
where behavioralism came from. We needed
to punish or reward or change the
kids. We now know that that regulation
um learning to have your prefrontal
cortex help you process emotions takes
25 to 28 years. That it is a process
where kids have to do it to learn.
Um and so we’re doing that. I think the
challenge for modern parents though is
that our kids are behaving and doing
things we would have never because we
are parenting differently. So they are
not in fear. My kids have never been in
Exactly. And that’s a beautiful thing.
It’s a beautiful thing. So, as a result,
our kids are going to show us that they
struggle to separate or that they don’t
want to go to bed or that they want to
snack. And they’re going to they’re
going to throw literally throw things.
They’re going to hit each other. They’re
going to do things that we might not
have dead to out of fear.
That’s a really hard position for
millennial parents, modern parents to be
in because they’re trying to do
something different to the way they were
raised with kids that feel more
that probably are a bit more challenging
because we’re allowing them to be feel
And that’s where I think we do.
I want to make my family’s life living
hell. I want to throw a tantrum. I want
to hit my sibling all day. No kid wants
to be the one in trouble.
They don’t. If we can know that in our
heart of hearts, then when we see a kid,
and I always talk about it, if we could
visualize five out of 10 is that kid
tipping up into full dysregulation where
Well, behavior, behavior that’s not
So, behavior that’s not It’s okay to
Throwing a fork is not great. No.
Yeah. Cuz someone could get hurt.
So, that’s when we’re stepping in. And
that’s why in that first Sorry, I moved
around the table. I grabbed my son’s
arms. I’m pretty firm physically in that
but it’s from a place of I can see
you’re not okay and I love you. Yeah,
You’re a good kid. Well, I don’t even
No, you’re not saying that. No, you
don’t say that. But they know and they
respect and love you. And so this is
you just going your kid is either okay
or not okay totally. If they’re hitting,
hurting, melting down, they’re not okay
So I will I know this is a whole another
topic and I just want to touch on it.
Yep. your your so strong wheel kids yes
but I I work a lot with neurodeiverse
children with sleep with my own family
and so again I’ve studied researched and
um implemented sleep’s very important of
course but when we’re talking about
something like this I I think when I’ve
read this you could absolutely use this
with neurodeiverse children um because
people like oh no they do this this what
I will say is parenting a neurodyiverse
child is 100 times harder. It really is.
And I’ve lived it and I see it and I
help families. So I do want to sort of
allow parents to know, okay, it is a bit
Look, parenting, if you imagine that for
a, you know, for a child with ADHD,
they’re going to get 10,000 more
I said 100, but 10,000. Yeah.
their nervous system just in any given
day is that much more disregulated. that
So parenting that child is unrelenting.
It is so much harder. It will bring you
to your knees and absolutely it will
But at the end of the day,
neurodyiverse kids need, all kids need
is to know that they’re seen and they’re
safe and they’re loved. And how could we
so everything I write about in my book I
it does and I really wanted to say that
only because I’ve run it past
100% you’re very highly educated and
intelligent and implement you know like
I know it does that these kids even more
more they It’s harder as a parent. So,
it comes back to our own ego and like,
I think it’s accepting that like the
30%’s really important, but it’s also
accepting um and actually giving
yourself a lot of compassion.
Yes, that’s what I want to say. that
actually be kind to yourself that
actually um you know if you’ve managed
to show up and do some connection with
your child or if you’ve managed to set a
boundary in a way that is different to
the way you were raised even if it’s
messy and clunky but there was firmness
and kindness if you’ve managed to stop
and go I can see you’re not okay and I’m
trying or just say sorry or be
reflective you’re absolutely killing it
and give yourself compassion because it
is really hard being a parent in general
It is really hard learning each of our
children and it is excruciatingly hard
if your child is struggling
and kids who are neurodiverse
particularly in the early years are
going to struggle so much more because
they’re working so much harder to get a
handle on those emotions. And so what
ends up happening and I was warned about
this before we even got the first child
diagnosed because it was a slow
diagnosis because it you know girls
mask it and it’s in their brain rather
than hyperactivity. Um so it was it was
quite a journey but um they end up sadly
um and this is again not to fe for
fearing of this to understand your child
that they already start to know that
they’re different and so it might not be
labeled it might not be huge of like an
hyperactive child but they start to feel
it. So we need to nurture them more and
and love them and nurture them um and
help them understand. You don’t have to
tell them they’ve got ADD or whatever
but it’s just understanding. It’s just a
little bit more structure like this, but
it might take double the time.
And also when they have the big
reactions, often you can’t do what you
did, you know, like going over and with
the the fork. Often a a a kid who’s
already done that, you might not be able
to touch or talk. It’s just being in
their space, not overalking, using the
same skill set, but it might just take a
Do you find that a little bit with
the look at can I mean I still think the
same things apply. I worked with a
family with an 11year-old that was at
the time um throwing furniture and
glassear at their heads and I said they
said you don’t understand.
And I she’s so big and I said I said
I always say you’re the adult.
You have to be. And so I was like
and I mean stand up. She does not want
to throw glasses your head. So I I still
believe that kids need help if they’re
hurting or hitting but absolutely we’re
trying to respect that space as well%.
So you’re as close as you can be without
making it worse. But the biggest thing
is just checking your own reactivity.
And what I would say about that is
actually, you know, we never I’m never
trying to tell my kids to take a deep
Never. I saw that in there cuz I used to
do that. That’s like red rag to a book.
It’s so I know. So I laugh so many times
go to the calm down corner. I am trying
I am trying to model everything. So what
I’m saying to myself is this is a hard
moment. I’m doing the best that I can.
um you know this is really tricky
are borrowing our nervous system. What’s
actually happening is they’re borrowing
what they can and I always liken it to
like you sort of um mentioned that
honestly the prefrontal cortex is all
about emotions and regulation is not
fully developed to mid20s. We as adults
we as parents have to be their frontal
let them lend it and it’s not easy
especially when they’re throwing
glasses. And the other thing is with
neurodeiverse kiddos, what I find and
what I support my parents with um you
know on reflection of what you talk
about is trying to be one step ahead as
they get older. So if they’re glass
throwers, if they’re whatever,
don’t have the I’m not kidding. This
might sound ridiculous. Don’t have the
glasses around. Meaning she might throw
a pillow. Not going to hurt people so
much. Being one step ahead as they get
Having the family meetings totally
having the meetings. I think that’s a
big having them included of like okay if
this is what happens next time y
and they have a big outburst then
there’s a natural consequence of
discussion afterwards like that’s a big
thing too um so like we were talking
about the angry is like a thead’s
bodyguard so that protective thing
um so and also deep diving into thinking
about the underlying cause so like you
said you know school tired um sensory
I think one of the the best questions
the most useful questions you can ask in
parenting begins with the words I
wonder. So, um you know, I remember
recently listening to my husband, bit of
an amazing moment. He’s in the kitchen.
I can hear my youngest child
screaming about the way he’s cut his
toasty, right? And he’s just like, “You
cut my toasty.” And my husband’s coming
back with logic. So, it tastes just the
same. Just eat it, right? And he’s
going, “No, you cut my toasty. I didn’t
want to cut. You never listened to me.”
And he’s just come back with, “Well,
take it or leave it.” Or, “I’ll make you
another one.” And it was kind of just
building and building. And then I heard
and you didn’t want it cut.”
Oh, so we used your tactics and it’s the
first day back to school today and I
wonder if it’s feeling a little bit hard
to go back to school. So what he’s done,
you like this in the background, Clappy?
I was. What he’s done there is he’s
narrating what’s happening. Sure. So all
what I want to say to parents is this is
really hard to do. All you try to focus
on is repeat back what you hear. If you
just literally go, “You’re really upset
And then they go, “Yeah, I am.”
Well, when kids feel seen and heard, it
then it gives you the opportunity to
and there’s a connection there, too.
That that’s, you know, that’s that
little connection, isn’t it? rather than
just saying to have it cuz I’ve cut it.
You you’ve used that little bridge.
So, it’s going to make a huge difference
in terms of having our kids feel seen
and heard. It’s going to help them in
the moment. I walked out a second later.
He was eating the toasty.
Oh, I see. Well done, Daddyo. Um so the
other thing like again you sort of
really well talk about it is like the
wise some kids um so some kids are are
more easily going to the anger and and
hitting and not to be sort of frightened
of that. So it’s understanding your
child obviously but like when things
might happen like times have changed
school and stuff like that is that again
just getting back to that word I wonder.
Yeah. Well, I think often it’s actually
our So, we know that little boys are
actually biggerarted than little girls.
Um, at birth they’re bigger hearted,
they’re softer, they’re more sensitive,
um, and they’re more they absorb more of
Over time, that gets shut down in them
because we teach them that they’re not
allowed to show any feelings.
Boys hit and hurt more than girls do.
Um, and what we also know is that boys
and yet their ability to make sense of
their feelings and their speech and
language is often that a little bit
behind girls. So their ability to bring
that to the prefrontal cortex and choose
a more pro-social way of managing those
emotions is going to be a little bit
So that’s more what we’re talking
that’s boys. But let’s also just think
of anyone that’s highly sensitive,
anyone that has a diagnosis, anyone
that’s going through a time of change.
All of those things are going to make
that kid more susceptible because as
cortisol rises in the system, as that
system is busier just coping,
we lose our ability to articulate, we
lose our ability to make a choice where
we seek help or we do something
different in the moment. And what’s
going to happen is it’s going to come
So for a lot of kids, the way they
communicate all their feelings at first
is physically. Toddlers are going to hit
and throw and push and that’s what they
do. And then as speech and language
comes on, kids will learn to say harsh
words. They’ll say all kinds of things
like, “You’re the worst mom ever.” All
kinds of things. Um, and again, they’re
learning. And we view that in the exact
same way. If my kid calls me a if my kid
says to me, “You’re the worst mom ever.
I am not going to respond to that. I’m
going to view that as there are times
I’ll step in.” So, if my child calls me,
we’ve got a rule in our house, no name
calling. So, I’m going to say, “I can’t
let you call your brother a name.”
That’s what I was going to say. But
you’re allowed to be mad.
Yep. And that’s a Can you repeat that
because cuz there’s a whole things in
here in your book of things not to say.
Oh, I said that. Oh, I definitely I
definitely said all of them probably
quite recently. So, can you just re
resay that sentence? So, um you know,
when just say it when something happens
and a child’s done it to another
sibling, can you just reay what you just
I can’t let you call your brother a
Because So, let’s take it back a step.
In terms of boundaries, it’s really
important that you have four core rules
Family rules. And this is what mine and
this is what I recommend for all
parents. No hitting and hurting each
Yeah. You know, animals. Yes.
Um number two is no damage to our stuff.
So respecting our world is really
Number three is that we don’t call each
other names. I think that’s a really
good one long term because name calling
has been shown in the evidence to be
really harmful for people, especially if
parents don’t intervene. No.
And then the fourth one is if someone
looks worried or upset or they’re
crying, we stop and we check if they’re
that fourth one is really fantastic at
particularly with boys. Um it becomes
because we want them to be able to read
non-verbal cues, redirect their behavior
but it also helps with 90% of your
sibling fights because if there is
someone that’s looking worried and
they’re not liking the way that they’re
being teased or whatever and they’re
showing that, then our job in this
family is to stop and check on them.
Totally. Now, anytime a kid is breaking
one of those four core rules as a
parent, I’m stepping in to help them.
I’m not stepping in for every My kids
can squabble till the cows come. I’m not
Yeah. So, you’re letting a lot of things
slide if they’re not. Yeah. Let let them
fight it. Not fight it out, but um work
I’m going to say what a great
opportunity to learn about conflict. I
can’t wait to see how you guys work this
Great. If a core rule is being broken or
getting close to and I hear things
escalating and I can hear someone is
Ideally, I’m stepping in and going, “Wo,
Two good kids having a hard time. I want
to hear what’s happening for both of
let’s sort this out in a way that’s
fair.” Again, there is no script for
this, but it is about us as the boundary
is I won’t let you. The boundary is
number one. I think the boundary is not
let you do that. We don’t hit in this
Yes. Now when they do break it, that’s
that’s the thing. Like they’ve hit and
Is there a natural consequence? Do you
have something where you they have had
to reflect on it that they might have
some time off an iPad, but that was
their like as they get older that they
they know that that could happen. So it
was already on the family rule. So if
you do get to that level and you haven’t
been able to contain it that they have a
natural consequence of like, okay, you
have 30 minutes off your iPad. So 30
minutes off the iPad for hitting is not
a natural consequence. That’s a
punishment. So no, I don’t do that. What
would you Okay, great. Before you go,
quick. What would you do quickly?
Um, okay. So really quickly, if a kid
hits, the punishment is the hit. It
never feels good to lose control and hit
or hurt. It is a sign of dysregulation.
I’m going to say we can’t do that. I’m
going to talk to you about it and then
maybe reflect on a different way to
manage that because the child never
Okay. A natural consequence that might
involve the iPad would be if you sneak
out of bed at night and get on the iPad,
which you know is a rule, then we might
have to put the iPad away for a bit
because it’s not safe for me to leave
that around and give you that
opportunity. So, a natural consequence
has to be related to the thing that
for it to be natural. Awesome. Thank you
so much, Jen. And you have got another
amazing book. So, like I said, we’ll put
all the links in with your books because
they’re amazing. And the title for the
is called Why Kids Need Boundaries. So
it’s my passion topic. I think it’s the
area parents need the most help with and
Yeah. Yay. Well, thank you again for
being today here today and there were so
many other things to talk about, but I
really appreciate your time and um
everything will be in the show notes for
Awesome. Pleasure. Thank you, Jen.
So, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure
to leave me a rating and review. I love
reading all of your messages. So, shoot
me a DM over on Instagram. It is
I also offer a free 15minute no
obligation phone chat. If you’d like to
book one, head over to my website
www.paringcollective.com.au
and request one there. So try to
remember to be kind to yourself and
always know you’re doing the best you
can every day, no matter what your day
is looking like. Until next time, much
